by Sofia Theotoky
What bothers me as a philosophy specialist is that too many non-philosophers read Nietzsche, thinking they've struck gold without sitting down to properly digest his ideas in context. For one, Nietzsche isn't a systematic philosopher and therefore people read him like literature. Then, unfortunately, because those readers have never been trained to read philosophically, fail to connect his problems with the solutions that can be found in complementary philosophers!
This is a pity, because one of the reasons I love Nietzsche is his essential connectedness to thinkers like Jung, Freud, or Heidegger. When someone thinks of the illness of society, particularly the problems associated with the ascetic ideal and the current ramifications of liberalism, the immediate conclusion is an active brand of nihilism.
But, the Hegelian interpretation of history tells us that there is a missing link between the ascetic ideal and the historical transition to active nihilism. A reading of Freud would indicate the same shift from pre-modern, psychically whole times versus the era of bad conscience, heralded by the advent of Christianity.
Jung would say that the shift is inherently psychic. Something psychic in us must have changed to mark the shift between tribalism and modernity -- whatever that means.
This is just another variation of Hegel vs. Marx on dialectic. Our society is ill, it is not denied, but the solution remains unclear, and will probably continue to remain a very hazy possibility until man has evolved psychologically.
nietzsche on the couch
With all due respect, this is pretty vague. I have some acquaintance with Nietzsche, Freud and Jung and I don't understand what you believe to be the nontrivial intersection of Nietzsche's thought with Freud/Jung. Though perhaps my opinion that Freud and Jung are quacks may be prejudicing my interpretation of the post. Would you elaborate on your post? I somehow suspect Nietzsche wouldn't have thought much of psychoanalysis.
you realize freud wrote a
you realize freud wrote a whole book called civilization and its discontents? there is a pretty evident overlap. i don't know whether to begin with the parallel between the ascetic ideal and the sublimation of erotic-thanatotic energies into intellectual pursuits, or the shift from pre-modern tribalism to modernity, christianity and liberalism. jung also extensively discussed the relation to our pre-modern ancestors, and psychic balance at the expense of strict standards of modern morality.
I'm familiar with
I'm familiar with Civilization and its disconcents (though I haven't read it), but I still don't see a deep connection. your post sounds very fluffy, give us some meat. It would be nice if you elaborated on all of the above. I can't agree or disagree with your comparison at this point because its so skimpy. I don't mean to be harsh, I just find Nietzsche of interest and I'm trying to figure out what angle you're coming from.
i'm sorry, but you really
i'm sorry, but you really need to read the literature in order for this to resonate with you; it's not superficial at all. you seem like the encapsulation of the problem i initially referred to: you have an interest in nietzsche, but you haven't read complementary thinkers.
Seriously though, you should
Seriously though, you should write with more clarity. Your sentences assume the reader already knows what you're going to say.
sorry, that is probably true.
sorry, that is probably true. i was writing for an audience who this was intuitive for, but i realize that's not very many people.
Society is not ill, we just hate the fact that we are not gods
The stress people feel is normal, human biology just hasn't had long enough time to adapt to the rapid changes of society. Through a process of random natural selection those who don't have those stressful or existential feelings about society or to whom it never occurs will leave more kids then those that don't.
Notice that all philosophies never talk about the out-dated nature of the nervous system itself, science can reshape the chemicals and structure of what a human being is, we won't see those changes within our small lifetimes, but you have to realize that most feelings that something is wrong with society are merely reactions of not living in communities of "people like us" or personal failures of "not getting what we want in life" be it love, money, etc. It is also a reaction to the stress and pace of modern life (endless obligations for those who are not wealthy)
The last is the boredom that comes free time and wealth, people have. The unconscious patterns that control the pattern of human thinking and your emotive reward and sexdrive system of your own mind are mal-adapted to a high-speed hightech society.
The reason a lot of people are not happy is that they are constantly in a state of want, and because the promise's of technology on aging and life extension, this only deepens their unconscious resentfulness of generations that will see the birth of new kinds of human beings with longer lives, better looks, and more cognitive power then they will ever attain in their small miserable lives, this goes for the richest man today alive who is old and see's the promise's of the future but can't escape it because he was born like all of us too early in the history of our species.
Mankind desires godhood, religion is man's desperate cry against a cruel fate in a hostile universe. Cicero said it best:
"If I am deluded in believing that the soul of man is immortal, then I am glad to be deluded, and I hope no one, as long as I live, will ever wrench this delusion from me. If, on the other hand, as certain petty philosophers have held, I shall have no sensation when I am dead, then I need have no fear that deceased philosophers will make fun of this delusion of mine."
So strong is Cicero's faith in and hope for an afterlife that will unite him with friends and admired men that have gone before him that he insists that he is:
"... fairly carried away by my eagerness to see your fathers who were such dear friends of mine, and I am anxious to meet not only those men whom I knew in person but also those about whom I have heard and read and even myself written."
The truth is we want to have power of what our ancestors called "gods" to have choice over structure of reality itself, so that we do not have to endure how it dashes our hopes, dreams, relationships, loves, and ambitions.
Hmm... not sure...
You say that society is not ill, and yet you also say that the "normal" stress people are experiencing was not experienced before in earlier times. To feel stress in response to the difficulties and challenges being caused by modern society is indeed normal; but is the cause/form of this stress (modern living) "normal" or "good" for people? If, theoretically, people should not be experiencing such stress and are not biologically equipped to handle it, is that not possible evidence of society's illness?
Look at other societies
Take older societies that had harsh penalties (and still do) for women and their sexuality, there was a recent death of a girl being buried alive for having engaged in sexual relations with boys, both the mother and the father approved of killing the girl in the honor killing.
Is that society "ill" when those views are the dominant views of that society and accepted as the norm by most? We may disagree with the harshness of the punishment but they are trying to produce by brute force mutations in people who are amenable to the way of life and kinds of people they want to produce in their society and they mercilessly kill those who do not subscribe to their values, it's a crude form of eugenics. Many of us are descendants of such people if we go back far enough we would find great-grandparents that were just brutal by our standards, but without that early pruning brutality many of us would not exist, be as smart or beautiful as we are today. With every action there are many inter-related benefits and drawbacks that many modern people do not have the intelligence to see.
What we call "illness" is "people we don't like and disagree with their values", i.e. we believe something is ill if it does not conform to our idea of "healthy". Without defining what a "healthy" society is like and whether there has ever been a society without enormous problems.
Corrupt is not the first group of human beings to lament the 'decline' of civilization, you can see laments on decline from thousands of years ago to the present.
I think I understand what you're trying to get at...
...but, with all due respect, it is a flawed way to look at this situation.
First off, let's clarify the fact that societies in the past have failed and declined: an irrefutable fact. The Roman Empire no longer exists, and Egypt and Greece are not nearly as culturally powerful and influential as they were in there respective heydays in antiquity, for example.
"What we call "illness" is "people we don't like and disagree with their values", i.e. we believe something is ill if it does not conform to our idea of "healthy". Without defining what a "healthy" society is like and whether there has ever been a society without enormous problems."
In light of the aforementioned established fact, I disagree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you come off as implying that "social illness" is, roughly, nothing more than people's paranoid and grumpy perceptions of society not being like "the good 'ole days." I disagree with this because while you are correct that no society is without it's problems, the fact is that there are types and certain intensities of problems that will destroy a society if they are not dealt with (if they can be dealt with at all, since history has shown us that the eventual decline or failure of a society seems to be inevitable.)
Thus, "social illnesses" are problems that herald or are symptoms of a decline or failure of a society. The West seems to be showing quite a bit of these symptoms of a society in decline: an obesity epidemic caused by poor gastronomy values (in America in particular, but starting to hit Europe, and even Japan, because of fast food chains); an adolescence epidemic (as highlighted in this recent article: http://www.corrupt.org/news/boys_who_can_shave ; increasingly degenerate values in public schools (I don't know about you but I cannot remember reading about school children going on violent rampages out of nowhere in any past annals of history); a breakdown in communities leading to anomie and destructive hyper-individualism (which cause adults to go on random violent rampges out of nowhere, and again I cannot think of any historical sources citing this happening before modern times. Also, if you think it's nothing more than "People have access to guns now, they would have never tried that with the primitive weapons they had back then!", Google around for the mass knife attacks that have happened in Japan.)
Honestly, are these problems just me being grumpy and paranoid, or are these problems serious ones that could lead to greater destruction if not payed attention to and dealt with? Not only that, these problems are also fairly unprecedented in comparison to the problems declining/failing civilizations have had in the past. Also, think about this: most civilizations that have declined/failed did so over the course of many hundreds or thousands of years. America is, if I remember correctly off the top of my head, a bit over 200 years old, right? Think about that: America is a little over 200 years old and is thus declining at an accelerated rate in comparison to other civilizations. I do not know what could be better evidence of something wrong beyond just grumpiness and paranoia.
Finally, your example of Muslim honor killings is like comparing apples and oranges. I assume the tone of that paragraph was essentially "Look, shocking and crazy things happen in other societies, doesn't mean they're declining." First off, that's their worldview and I don't have a problem with it. If they want to run their society that way, that's their business (as long as they keep it within their borders. Now if they try to enforce it in MY borders, we will have a problem.) Second, that act of a foreign worldview actually has a purpose within the context of their society. There is a big difference between "honor killing to maintain values" vs. "school child randomly shooting fellow students and teachers because they can't take it anymore."
One more thing:
"Corrupt is not the first group of human beings to lament the 'decline' of civilization, you can see laments on decline from thousands of years ago to the present."
Of course Corrupt isn't the first, because societies have declined and failed in the past.
Whatever is deemed...
"First off, let's clarify the fact that societies in the past have failed and declined: an irrefutable fact."
Whatever is deemed the social illness cannot be cured because it is a result of system that encourages the destructive behavior (corporatist capitalism, advertising, etc). You're just watching ignorant human beings follow their genetic patterns of behavior in a complex environment. The only real fix is something like civil war and enslaving and getting rid of the rights of the unfit.
You can't have a society in which you allow the mediocre people to behave in such way, no amount of education will change the recalcitrant or ignorant populations of people, so you have to find a way to eliminate it by:
1) Science and technology (i.e. gene therapy to improve ones intellectual and bodily functioning)
2) Death of the offenders by benign (dying out, voluntary or non-voluntary sterilization, etc)
Not only that did you think those civilizations were truly aware they were "declining" in the absolute sense? When a civilization declines it just doesn't disappear it's demography changes over time due to the choices of the people themselves
Perversely the freedom of people leads to decline, because there is no effective way to check the behavior, Freud of all people saw religion wasn't even enough to bind people and end wars, so what exactly is your solution to the "social illness" problem? Lets hear your definition of who and what is the problem and your solutions.
Well...
"so what exactly is your solution to the "social illness" problem? Lets hear your definition of who and what is the problem and your solutions."
...to be honest, I have no idea if there is a final solution to the problem of the inevitable decline/failure of civilizations, or if there is even supposed to be one. In fact, it may be the design of nature to keep variety going by having certain civilizations have their time in the sun for awhile, to die out, and for a new successor to take over.
Nevertheless, to take a stab at your question, I think that certain civilizations in the past have clearly lasted longer due to certain systems and behaviors that clearly worked. Thus, if we were to try to find a solution, or at least a way to delay the decline/failure the longest, the best that we could do would be to go back through history, see what worked, apply it, and utilize what worked as a foundation to develop innovations beyond past traditions (in contrast to the general "it's old, let's toss it out!" mentality of most liberals.)
To start with, there definitely needs to be consensus, homogeny, and control via local community based culture. In the West in particular, there is definitely too much of a "I'm gonna get a job, a house, a family, and we're just going to work, buy stuff, and shut ourselves in." Local society would work a lot better if people were connected to and engaged with each other and the "village raising a child" mentality would take hold in large cosmopolitan areas.
However, local culture is not enough. There must be some centralized power strong enough to keep local regions in check. Iceland tried the "bunch of tribes with a weak central government" model, and ended up descending into petty bickering and constant in-fighting until they submitted to the king of Norway. Early European history also demonstrates an inevitable propensity to unite groups of local regions under some central power, so we might as well account for this.
Furthermore, the central government and local regional governments should probably have aristocratic/theocratic values that push the merchant class to the bottom of the social class ladder in terms of responsibility. We both seem to be on the same page in this regard:
"Whatever is deemed the social illness cannot be cured because it is a result of system that encourages the destructive behavior (corporatist capitalism, advertising, etc)."
I agree. I think the merchant class, in the West, is clearly in a position of power they should not be in. You can see it in the kind of advertisements and media (tv shows, movies, etc.) that are widely available. In it's zeal for "separation of church and state", the American central government (as well as state and city level governments) basically allows media companies to show just about anything within reason (a reason that is getting thinner and thinner through the years.) that will enable them to churn a profit. While I acknowledge that corporations and companies can be good and offer good products and that I do not completely have a mentality of "the..the...the corporations, are CORPORATIONY! And... and... and they MAKE MONEY!" I think enough of them are willing to bend traditional morals for the sake of profit, that they need to be regulated by governments (central, local) with higher abstract values.
Governments and local cultures based on abstract values (instead of trying too hard to be neutral and please everyone) would probably solve a lot of problems: Obesity epidemic? Local governments regulating the amount of fast food restaurants that can be in an area along with a shame culture towards unhealthiness and excessive fast food eating (the phenomenon of, for example, FIVE McDonald's in ONE city especially PISSES ME OFF! Which also touches on the need for local government level city planning) Adolescence epidemic? Local government/culture based regulation of products and media that encourage and glorify this behavior as well as shaming of those who indulge in such behavior. Local community centric culture should also have anomie snuffed out, due to most people being connected to each other.
School shootings are a more complex issue. I think one possible solution is what the author of this article suggests:
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
"Around the age of eleven, though, kids seem to start treating their family as a day job. They create a new world among themselves, and standing in this world is what matters, not standing in their family. Indeed, being in trouble in their family can win them points in the world they care about."
"Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens. Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped, savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it."
"In outline, it was the same at the schools I went to. The most important thing was to stay on the premises. While there, the authorities fed you, prevented overt violence, and made some effort to teach you something. But beyond that they didn't want to have too much to do with the kids. Like prison wardens, the teachers mostly left us to ourselves. And, like prisoners, the culture we created was barbaric."
"And as for the schools, they were just holding pens within this fake world. Officially the purpose of schools is to teach kids. In fact their primary purpose is to keep kids locked up in one place for a big chunk of the day so adults can get things done. And I have no problem with this: in a specialized industrial society, it would be a disaster to have kids running around loose."
"Teenage apprentices in the Renaissance seem to have been cheerful and eager. They got in fights and played tricks on one another of course (Michelangelo had his nose broken by a bully), but they weren't crazy.
"As far as I can tell, the concept of the hormone-crazed teenager is coeval with suburbia. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think teenagers are driven crazy by the life they're made to lead. Teenage apprentices in the Renaissance were working dogs. Teenagers now are neurotic lapdogs. Their craziness is the craziness of the idle everywhere."
"Teenage kids used to have a more active role in society. In pre-industrial times, they were all apprentices of one sort or another, whether in shops or on farms or even on warships. They weren't left to create their own societies. They were junior members of adult societies.
Teenagers seem to have respected adults more then, because the adults were the visible experts in the skills they were trying to learn. Now most kids have little idea what their parents do in their distant offices, and see no connection (indeed, there is precious little) between schoolwork and the work they'll do as adults."
There's more to read, but to keep this from getting too long, perhaps apprenticeships instead of public education are an interesting option to investigate.
To wrap this up, I also realize that what I've just typed are idealized situations, and do not expect these ideas to work out without some sort of miracle or in the aftermath of societal collapse, but, in general, this is my answer to your inquiry.
When I talk about societal
When I talk about societal illness, I am referring to the eons of "bad conscience" and the constructed virtue of the weak and poor - ever since the advent of Christianity.
Societal illness
This is not a "societal illness" this is evolutionary strategy, people who are religious were the most successful in leaving offspring, so technically from an evolutionary standpoint they were successful because the religious outbred and conquered everyone else. Just because academics see the poor and weak as inferior does not mean they are inferior from an evolutionary perspective, depending on your definition of poor and weak. In fact you could make great arguments that too much academic intelligence is maladaptive since it makes one more prone to leaving less offspring. thereby leaving the world a crappier place.
So we are their descendent's, yes religion created a lot of neurosis no doubt about it, but it also gave larger groups of people a unity most other tribal groups could never muster.and so they were out competed, notice it was the religious that developed that kind of group empathy that engendered civilization. Imagine trying to argue for group empathy using survival of the fittest mentality back in ancient times, you'd have a hard road ahead of you. Delusion and it's ensuing neurosis works whether we want to admit it or not, for the bulk of people delusion is 'good enough' for it to influence them to make sacrifices other tribes of humans did not make and hence went extinct.
You forget that ideas people are infected with means that the unconscious cellular directives driving evolution found them useful. The fact is many of the poor and weak of society were kept that way on purpose by the higher ups, how many people have escaped poverty and become something because of printing press so that the "poor and weak" (read: the upper classes competition) could be forcefully held down through ignorance and forced deprivation? Would Obama be president of the united states today if there was widespread social stigma that the blackman was "inferior" and we still kept all blacks as slaves?
You stupid dickhead. Why are
You stupid dickhead. Why are you writing comments when you could write articles?
Sofia is that _you_? hahah.
Sofia is that _you_? hahah.
Hm, I wish! He wrote with
Hm, I wish! He wrote with more clarity! :)
Is that...
Is that "I wish" an endorsement for me to write an article? hmm? hahah
Sofia the obtuse
And yet mr anonymous could understand me fine, you use a lot of obtuse language yourself you know that right? My only problem is you can't edit anonymous posts after the fact and I admit I'm too lazy to proof read anything I type.
I'm the harbinger of western decline!
I'm sorry, all! I realize in
I'm sorry, all! I realize in hindsight this post was very obtuse. I'll try to make more focused points in the future. :c
/sob.
No, It was me who wrote that.
No, It was me who wrote that. Sorry for being a bit vulgar :)